SNS meets Cheryl Dunn

SNS NYC sat down with filmmaker Cheryl Dunn in her Downtown studio to talk about how she got into filmmaking, the importance of her subjects and living in NYC during 9/11. Cheryl also discusses her new film 'Moments Like These Never Last' about the late artist and graffiti writer Dash Snow aka Sacer IRAK crew.

Cody : I know you were born and raised in New Jersey.

Cheryl : Correct.

Cody : What inspired you to move to New York City?

Cheryl : It’s shocking that everyone I knew didn’t move to New York City. -laughs- You could almost see the city from my town. We would come here to go to Yankee games and rock shows. It was so exhilarating and scary to me. I lived in a town that didn't even have sidewalks. I guess I just didn’t know what I wanted to be, or could possibly be. I came from a super working class family, nobody in the arts, nobody that ever traveled out of the country, nobody that went to college. I did all those things. I had a few goals: to live in New York City, travel the world, and make art. It was always the artists and musicians who migrated to the city. There’s a lot of interesting artists that came from Jersey and Philly. They were close to New York but not in it, and they figured out how to get in.

Cody : I recently heard this quote by Leo Fitzpatrick- he’s also from Jersey. When he was a kid he was telling all his friends, “I'm going to New York, I’m skating, going to raves and spending the whole day there.” They go, “I can't believe you do all of that!” and he goes, “I can't believe you don’t!”

Cheryl : Exactly. That's exactly how I felt. Sometimes it draws you in or sometimes it scares the shit out of you. If you’re from North Jersey and your local news is all about the crime in New York City, that's what you think it is- because you're not in it. I learned a big lesson shooting massive rock shows and on 9/11. The perception of danger from an outside point of view is really escalated, but when you're in it, you're dealing with your immediate experiences and it's so different. 9/11 was translated to us through big media- it's all fear mongering. Yes, I had a scary experience, but it was a completely different experience from what they were saying. Also, I’ve been in giant piles of stampedes at rock shows where shit went wrong. Instead of running toward where everyone was going, my friend and I ran to the center of the storm. It was really calm in the center of the storm. I don't know. Human nature is interesting that way.

Cody : When did you first pick up a camera and was art a part of your childhood?

Cheryl : Yeah. My mom is an amazing frustrated artist. She is an artist, but she was a housewife. She raised four kids in a disgruntled way, but she always took pictures and made eight millimeter films of everything we did. Martha Cooper told me that cameras were often marketed to mothers or women. In the 60s, these eight millimeter cameras would come with a booklet that would say things like, “How to make your home movies more interesting,” that showed you how to create little scenarios. A family Thanksgiving scene where, you know, Little Johnny comes and steals an olive off the table and they keep cutting that into the film. It was Kodak’s idea for housewives. So my mom did that one time, actually. She also made a film when my brother's mouse died- he made a coffin out of paneling. She played a piano and made a film of us doing a funeral for a mouse. She was pretty fucking bored, I guess. My whole childhood had records of everything I did. I thought, “Oh, I have a really great memory." I’d think, “I remember that dress,” and I don't really remember it. My mom had just taken a picture of it. We would play with these shoe boxes filled with pictures and on weekends, beg my parents to watch movies. We’d set up the projector and screen and watch the movies she took of us. Documentation was just super normal to me. I thought everybody did that. I guess I got my first decent camera in high school when I was an athlete. I was a gymnast and ran track. I documented my friends, the things we did, and continued from there.

Cody : You've been documenting New York City for decades now. What attracted you to documenting graffiti writers, artists, protesters and skaters?

Cheryl : Well, if you want to go back to the origins, we would come into the city to go to Yankee games in the Bronx, and when I first saw Bruce Davidson's book, “Subway,” it really affected me. I mean, that was stuff I was seeing and I just thought it was so amazing. I studied art history in college and in hindsight I realized I actually was using that education. I was being a historian subconsciously. I think studying art history and having passionate professors teach us about the importance of photos and pieces of film- like Hans Namuth who went to Jackson Pollack’s barn in the Springs and put a camera underneath a piece of glass and filmed him doing a painting. That piece of footage is like a piece of gold as far as understanding Pollack’s practice. I wanted to follow in those footsteps. Initially, I was trying to shoot for magazines, trying to shoot for anybody. There weren’t any documentary magazines anymore in the 90s- it was fashion. I would do fashion shoots with my friends and find weird locations, get thrift shop clothes, do these stories, pitch them to magazines, and they would print them. So it was fashion, but it was not often an assignment. I would just kind of make it up. Through this I gained insight into what magazines were telling their audience about what was happening. I thought, “Why don't they do stories about artists? Artists are the ones leading the culture.” I was involved with Alleged Gallery and I did a project with Phil Frost and we started to date. Then I met Barry McGee, all these West Coast guys- it was this network of mostly guys and Margaret Kilgallen- it was fascinating. The culture was fascinating to me. I really loved going into worlds that were a bit inaccessible and learning about them. I did that with boxing as a documentary project for years. Then I did that with graffiti. I started pitching stories, to magazines like, “Fuck that boy band- write a story about Margaret Kilgallen and Barry McGee!” I got a bunch of things published. I thought this is what's leading the culture. Now it's so normal seeing profiles on artists, you know? But it wasn't normal in the 90s. It wasn't typical.

Cody : You mentioned almost everyone you were documenting was a guy. Could you speak about your experience as a female artist and the outlook on the future for women being spotlighted in the arts?

Cheryl : It just gets better all the time because, you know, being a white dude right now is not that great. Pay back time. -laughs- You can try to change the system, do what you can, or you can just put your head down and do what you're passionate about and what moves you. Maybe someday someone might give a shit. That's what happened to me. I was competing with all these dudes. I was always the only girl. I was competing to do these fashion things with all these guys. I would get thrown a crumb here and there, but I wasn't getting those assignments, really. Since I wasn't getting those assignments, I did documentary work. For instance, using the world of boxing- it wasn't for anything- it was for me. I was really practicing my craft without repercussions. I think that body of work and that practice made me a better street photographer. You can't control the circumstances. Maybe luck is a big thing. If you're on this side of the ring and that's where the guy gets knocked out, then you get the good shot. If you're on the other one, you're fucked. All these dudes are pushing you to get a position. I learned it was such an ego driven sport, not only everybody in the ring, but everyone around the ring. If you couldn't be Mike Tyson, you could be a businessman and maybe own a piece of Mike Tyson. That was a big flex. When it came to me, some tomboy girl with a camera, I was invisible to these dudes. They didn't even notice me. I used that as an asset, actually. I studied that male ego thing. I also encountered that ego in graffiti. I learned it was an asset to not have a threatening ego. I didn't get those fashion jobs that I thought I wanted to get so I did these documentary projects that came from my heart, that inspired me, instead. Documentary work only gains more resonance the older it gets. Maybe nobody gave a shit about that boxing picture I took 20 years ago, but now they do. Or the film I shot of Margaret Kilgallen- she passed away at 30. I shot all this film of her and I was like, “Thank fucking God." Documentary work became a foundation that no matter what, I always had it. I couldn't get knocked off from the foundation of all this work I had done. If I had done fashion stories for magazines, I would have an archive of outdated fashion pictures instead.

Cody : How long were you shooting boxing?

Cheryl : Eight years.

Cody : What was one of your favorite boxing fights?

Cheryl : Well, I met this guy, a real estate developer who was in love with my sister. He, after the 88 Olympics, picked up Ray Mercer who won the gold medal heavyweight, Charles Murray who was a welterweight, Al “ ICE “ Cole who was a cruiserweight, and he started a gym in the iron bound section of Newark called “The Triple Threat.” He wanted to ingratiate himself to my sister so he would invite me to matches to shoot. I shot a lot in Atlantic City- Holyfield and George Foreman. That was the era that I was shooting, mostly. I also often turned the camera to the audience and to the ring card girls. I was shooting the whole scene, something I did with boxing and also at music festivals. Everybody would be trying to get the shot of the main action, but I would often turn around and focus on the emotion that people displayed watching that action. I also did that with 9/11. I did a whole portrait series of people coming to my street, staring at the debris by shooting back into the crowd. As a New Yorker, you guys know, it's not that normal that people are just crying on the street. You gotta keep your shit together or else you're vulnerable, right? That was the first time where I saw people really let their guards down, being really emotional on the street. It was quite unusual, actually.

Cody : I've seen your most recent film, Moments Like This Never Last four times now, and each time it feels more and more special. It shows how extraordinary Dash Snow was. How did you and Dash first meet each other?

Cheryl : I met him while doing a project documenting the artists Stephen “ESPO” Powers, Barry “TWIST” McGee, and Todd “REAS” James, doing the install of Street Market at Deitch Projects in 2000. He was kind of hanging around. We met and he showed me his Polaroids. I had Dave Schubert helping me on that project and they became really great friends after that. He took amazing pictures of Dash over the years. I had been doing little interviews of graffiti writers, thinking that someday I’d make a film about graffiti. I asked Dash if I could film him. I have an hour long tape of me asking, “Did you go to school? Are you on good terms with your family? Do you want to have kids? How do you define success?” Really wide open questions and some specific. So it's interesting - this footage of a 19 year old Dash became a thread to the film- his thoughts, and then his ideas about conspiracy, America being the police of the world and how he disagreed with that. So this interview became the spine of the film. It’s shot on a shitty mini DV, but we tried to make it look as good as possible.

Cody : Your film footage dates back to the mid nineties up to the last couple of years. How long have you been working on this documentary?

Cheryl : I started writing a treatment in 2011. You go through all these incarnations of having meetings, trying to get someone to believe in the project so you can get some funding to do it. Then you collect what possibly could exist in the world of moving image and his voice. There's a ton of stills but not so much video because it was before people had cameras on their phones. Sometimes I would post something on Instagram and people would message me. This guy from London hit me up, “I got footage of him in the catacombs in Paris after this Agnes B show.” And I'm like, “Where are you!?” He had some amazing footage that came to me towards the end of the project. I wanted to make an archival based film. When you find this kind of footage you’re like, “Oh my God! I just found five minutes of moving image of Dash!”

Cody : I love the scene of him in the catacombs.

Cheryl : I know. It's great. It really came to me late in the game. He says, “I'd rather be a tourist down here than up there.” He’s really hiding out which is ironic considering his French heritage, his family, and that he's in these catacombs underneath Paris doing this. I love that story.

Cody : Can you speak to the parallels of being a young artist in New York City during the September 11 attacks compared to being an artist now in 2021 experiencing global chaos and the societal fears of COVID 19?

Cheryl : Well, after 9/11 nobody got unemployment like in 2020/21. If you were in the vicinity of the World Trade Center, there was a ton of support. I was in Zone One- I got SBA loans. I literally had no work and I was homeless for a while because I couldn't even go back to my spot where I had lived and worked. It took me 20 years to pay back that loan. I really used it. Every magazine closed, there were no agencies. My whole business shut down. Unemployment during the pandemic allowed you, if you stayed in the City, to turn all of NYC into an arts residency. People didn’t have to go to school or work, they could make art. That's what I did. I spent a lot of time editing and I was still working on this film. I think it was the best time to be an artist, actually. You didn’t have to have that other job to supplement surviving- which was getting harder and harder to do. I heard Patti Smith say about artists, “The city doesn’t love you,” but I don't know. The city loved you last year. The city better love you because you were some of the only people here, you know? Artists should be celebrated. There’s a lot of parallels between now and then. I’ve been doing a project where I'm talking to kids on the street trying to connect footage I shot 20 years ago with some stuff today. We were shooting a little bit with this guy in Washington Square. He’s from Jersey, quit school, and he does screen printing. He’s learning- a novice, He's having the best time. He goes, “Me and my friends- we can actually afford an apartment!” I have friends- they’re going to get stores. There's a real turnover happening. Many storefronts of people that have been there forever and ever- they’re empty. But what's going to happen is that kid selling T-shirts in Washington Square Park is going to make a store. I think it's really an amazing time. It’s sad to see Sammy's Romanian and these historic places go, but then there’s some places that only exist because tourists go there and they're just not good. They've been there since the 50’s in the West Village. So, cool- let's get something new. Let's get that kid from New Jersey with his mom's meatballs. Something that is owner operated. I would guess that when those spots started out they were owner operated, but they're not owner operated anymore. They just keep going because enough tourists go there, but they’re not good. I live in Brooklyn now and there might not be 80 billion restaurants, but the ones that are there are owner operated. They’re good and the people running them really care.

Cody : You've directed 2 feature films; Moments Like This Never Last, and Everybody Street, shorts and music videos; Bicycle Gangs of New York and Sylvan Esso - Rooftop Dancing, as well as countless commercials for Nike and Adidas, as well as many others. Do you have any projects in the works right now?

Cheryl : Always. I could use a break. There’s a place that I've been documenting in Oakland, California called Creative Growth Art Center. It's an art center for adults with disabilities. It's world famous. Many of the artists have had solo shows at the Brooklyn Museum or have been collected by the Museum of Modern Art. I'm hoping to really shine a light on this population and have the artists speak for themselves, whether verbally- some artists are non verbal- or not. I’m focusing on finding their voice through their work, and having them personally address their disability if possible. To gain insight into what it's like for them to navigate this world. Think about if you couldn't communicate with words, and your way communicate with the outside world was art- how intense that art would be. There’s a million facets to this story. I've been going there for about 18 years, back and forth shooting different things. I’ve made a number of films for the New York Times. Pharrell Williams had a Google show called “I Am Other” and I made ten episodes. Every time there's a possibility to have it go somewhere, we pitch this story. It's so life affirming and reminds you what’s important about being human. When I was making the Dash movie, which was hard at times, very hard at times, I would be like, “Why can't I be making the Creative Growth movie?” Because the people just love you up. There is a show opening at White Columns with one of their artists. It’s very difficult sometimes for their artists to fly on planes, but she came here. She was supposed to fly during the hurricane- her name is Nicole Storm. How ironic. But you should check out that show. That's a big project I have in the works. I’m also doing a short, hopefully working on a feature, and doing an exhibition at the Kohler Museum in Wisconsin. All this is happening within the year.

Cody : Very cool. You direct commercials and documentaries. Do you prefer one more than the other?

Cheryl : I believe you always learn, no matter what it’s for. A commercial has its own variables. I’m at this point where I get hired to do what I do. Even if I'm doing a commercial job, I'm getting that job because I'm a documentary filmmaker. Whatever sensibility they perceive me to have might apply to the objective in that assignment. So I get to do, pretty much, what I do. It takes a long time to get there. I've been doing this for a long time, so that's pretty rewarding. You always learn. You always learn something. You always learn something about business, about people. You learn something about how to use your camera better. It's practice. If you don't think that you’ve got to keep applying and practicing what your craft is all the time, then you're wrong. I remember when I used to shoot fashion, when I was a photo assistant and everyone's trying not to be an assistant, right? There were these dudes, and they said, “I don’t do test pictures.” You take a model, you do pictures- not for an assignment- you practice. She gets pictures, you get pictures. I have this friend of mine who goes, “I don't do that anymore.” I’m like, “You don't practice? What do you mean?” You just wait to be the man? You gotta fucking practice your shit all the time. When I would shoot music festivals- I made a book, ``Festivals Are Good,” and a lot of it is from Bonnaroo. I would go there every year because I enjoyed it and I could shoot for four or five days straight in a sea of 100,000 people that were psyched to be there. With all the weird formations and compositions and stupid shit people do. I could just practice being super speedy with my camera. Practicing all the things that are good to be on the streets. I can't be on the streets every day. I make films- I’m tied to that. It's really hard to just jump on the street and get in the flow. It's training. You can't be a good sprinter if you don't ever run. You’ve got to keep in shape. All of that keeps you in shape no matter what it's for. And I welcome it- it’s cool.

Cody : What's your favorite camera?

Cheryl : I mostly shoot Leicas, I try to shoot light, small things because I’m always bringing too much equipment. I can't be like, “I’ll just bring this body and this lens…” Leicas are light and they have sick lenses. That's pretty much my camera of choice. Then I'll have a GR 21 snap camera. Then video, I'm using the Sony A7S. If I'm shooting myself. I'm not usually the main DP. If I have to interview people, I have to look people in the eye.

Cody : Where can our readers watch Moments Like This Never Last?

Cheryl : Right now it's in theaters. On the 3rd of September it will be streaming on Amazon and Apple TV domestically, then going to spread into Europe in October in theaters and on Mubi.

Interview by Cody Simons Photos by David Jacobson and Cheryl Dunn